D. ([info]dartmouthtongue) wrote in [info]mannazone,

Post-New Year HangOver Induced Pseudo-Meta Rambling

Ok, so thing is that even though I may look like I totally don't listen to other people's POV's unless they are somewhat similar to my own, I do listen. Sometimes I'm dismissive because I've either predicted the counterargument or I've encountered the argument many times before, or because I've seen some partiality on the part of the debater that makes me --I dunno-- think that the person throwin' the spiel is kind of, a tiny bit, semi-full of shit. Believe me, I don't take it personally or think badly of you because I think badly of you, because nobody's perfect and everyone interprets things how they want to interpret them. I dunno how to explain it, but it's like I feel that just because somebody's pulling something out of their ass to make the world a little prettier and people a little better doesn't mean that I think they are bad people, 'cause they aren't. Where was I going with this? Right, arguments. Well, a lot of people here, most readers here don't agree with my interpretations of TAS, 'cause they do see love and romance there. The Cock is not enough, so they go for the heart. In many cases they argue (since the beginning) that either I have a too narrow definition of love, that I'm too trusting of Psychology and that I may have (along with D to the M to the W) a too idealistic definition of love. I said, ironically, that I and DMW were very romantic and idealistic, and apparently it was taken seriously, so I guess my rep around here is softacuddlefuck. The truth is that I think that the whole series pretty much tricks most readers, that they fall for the sociopathic seduction (yeah, alliteration ;D) and that they tint his actions and his words with their meanings. How to fall in love with a sociopath in 7 days, specially if you concentrate on the Old Man Carnac, villain of la Comedia, and his plans to thwart the two star-crossed lovahs.

I think that some shrink out there should take the book and give a class about how to not let yourself be taken in by a sociopath and then give the series out as an example of how to watch out for that sort of thing. Like say, somebody says they pity him because of his "sad" life. The professor could point out that pity is exactly the sort of thing sociopaths like to exploit, specially the parasitic sort {That shit always reminds me of Buffalo Bill's 'broken arm.' "I'm helpless, won't you please help out?"} Somebody else points out how we all possess sociopathic traits, to an extent, and then the professor can point out the differences between daydreams and hallucinations, or some shit like that. Somebody else could talk about how plenty of "normal" people torture and the Professor could talk about the M. Experiment.

Rose's argument about the torturers she knows personally, stayed with me, and I remembered this.

I dunno if you guys know about that? It was an experiment they made, I read about it a long time ago 'cause I've always been interested in weird shit, where they put two people, a Learner and a Teacher, and the Learner had to learn pairs of words together. Like shit and piss. lol No, not that, but like cow and cake. Something like that. The Learner would get strapped to a chair and the Teacher would say one word, and the Learner --from memory-- had to recite its mate or get electrical shocks by the Teacher. So it started in, I dunno, 15 volts? and when all the way to like 400 volts or something, where it said DANGER bitches fry. So at 70 something (can't remember it exactly) the Learner guy starts screaming and begging to be let off. You'd think most people would stop, right? Well, no they didn't, see 'cause the Prof was right there telling them in a cool cucumber sandwiches voice: "Please, continue." "Continue, if you please." That sort of thing. Shrinks discovered that perfectly normal, decent human beings, while feeling pretty damned shitty and distressed about torturing another harmless, innocent human being, could put their consciences to sleep if they saw that a legitimate authority figure, who inspired respect, told them to obey. The responsibility was no longer theirs, but the Authority Figure's, they were carrying out their duty against their better judgment. One dude, who refused, was a guy who was confident enough, and had enough academic titles under his belt to feel like "Fuck it, the dude in the lab coat is my equal." Our conscience doesn't take a hike with our equals, but with our "betters."

Now, what's the difference between a "normal" person who follows orders and a sociopath, and why do we even have a word like sociopath to label 4% of the population? Well, in the long run torture is torture. Some people might even consider the sociopath less culpable than the normal guy who just lets his conscience take a big Z during certain situations, 'cause while the sociopath doesn't have the internal break to say fuck it, stop, the normal dude does. The thing with sociopaths is that they do know about "good" and "evil," but they don't give a shit because it doesn't concern them. To sociopaths the moral break is a hindrance, a fool's obstacle, that bars you from getting your shitz nitz when you want it. Torture is torture, yes, and many of us, most of us, could be active participants in torture, but because we DO give a shit, because we DO have a conscience, there will always be someone who will react with outrage. Who will say, I don't give a fuck if you're wearing a lab coat or a g-string you smarmy, evil fuck, I will not torture because I DO give a shit. A conscience is a really important thing to have :P and to listen to and we shouldn't be so dismissive about its absence. Right, Jiminy?

I was watching Dangerous Liasons recently, again, the old one with the poof skirts, tits on the chins (boobs on pedestals) and Malcovich, who I kinda wanna bonk even though he's ugly as sin and almost as tempting, and I was struck with the Glen Close character Marquise or Countess Le SomethingorOther (that bitch makes women SCARY) because I recognized her as a sociopath. It really came home how the absence of conscience paired with balls and a brains, not only makes everything possible but everything meaningless as well. They were bored as bad-fuck, specially her, and the way they'd pass time was by making everyone their pawn. Games of dominance, however, eventually become shit-boring, because they fall into a pattern. We read TAS because of Warrick, because of that variable that makes it all explosive, because, like Black has frequently said, if it was just Toreth fucking and metaphorically fucking everyone in sight, eventually we'd yawn and dismiss it. The interesting and the unpredictable is the unknown, and people with mental illnesses that are as severe as these are WAY predictable, one you've got your eye on 'em. It's us somewhat sane bitches you've gotta watch out for.

Sometimes when people act like Toreth is nothing but pitiful and cute, apart from recognizing them as Helen, I wonder if they have any concept of what not having a conscience means or if they see it as something so out of their experience that they have the luxury of finding it charming, like people who hear that kids get their hands cut off 'cause of diamonds and then inquire if it's "just one hand or both." It's not that they don't give a shit, but that sociopaths and dismemberment are not real to them. Hey, I gotta hard-on for Toreth, who doesn't? I just think, wow, what a huge blind spot. Then again, maybe I'm just impregnating the whole thing with my experiences and I'm too hypersensitive toward it. Was I rude? I never know. If I was rude or insulting, I apologize. It's a language and personality thing, lol, nothing personal.

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  • 73 comments

[info]lexa_reiss

January 2 2007, 02:13:02 UTC 5 years ago

Re the meaninglessness, and therefore boredom, of life without a conscience: there's a nice passaage in Randall Jarrell's novel Pictures from an Institution:

It seems to us so hard to be even fairly good--for either it is hard, or else when it is easy we do not think we are being good--that we cannot help feeling that the bad are as much happier than we as they are worse. If the bus companies could have sold conducted tours of [character]'s head, it would have done more for ethical feeling than all the moralists since Kant.

[info]dartmouthtongue

January 2 2007, 04:43:52 UTC 5 years ago

It's true. It's like when I give money to homeless people, and then spend half-an-hour calling myself a hypocrite, because have I REALLY helped? Do I truly give a shit? That nice feeling I got when I gave him the buck, do I deserve it? He still feels like shit. And so on...

Then again, I'm really tribal, and if you're not only not of my tribe, but you try to shit on my tribe? My conscience tends to completely blank out. It's like it goes to Rio, and I could not give less of a fuck what happens to anybody who crosses my "peeps." lol

Thanks for the quote, very cool. ;}

Anonymous

January 2 2007, 04:14:26 UTC 5 years ago

>I said, ironically, that I and DMW were very romantic and idealistic, and apparently it was taken seriously,

You did? It was?? I missed that, dude, or I would've had to say something. ;-)

Haven't thought of the Milgram Experiment in years. Scary as hell stuff. Here's a link if anyone wants to read a bit more about it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_Experiment

I think a seminar/book on how to not get taken in by a sociopath would be a terrific contribution to society! Especially since the best illustrative text would absolutely be TAS. They could use a couple other sources, too, like _The Bad Seed_ and that movie about the con woman that I hated--sorry, I'm blanking on the name. You remember it, Manna?

Happy New Year to everyone at Mannazone! :-)

[info]dmwmd

January 2 2007, 04:14:56 UTC 5 years ago

>I said, ironically, that I and DMW were very romantic and idealistic, and apparently it was taken seriously,

You did? It was?? I missed that, dude, or I would've had to say something. ;-)

Haven't thought of the Milgram Experiment in years. Scary as hell stuff. Here's a link if anyone wants to read a bit more about it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_Experiment

I think a seminar/book on how to not get taken in by a sociopath would be a terrific contribution to society! Especially since the best illustrative text would absolutely be TAS. They could use a couple other sources, too, like _The Bad Seed_ and that movie about the con woman that I hated--sorry, I'm blanking on the name. You remember it, Manna?

Happy New Year to everyone at Mannazone! :-)

[info]dartmouthtongue

January 2 2007, 04:38:22 UTC 5 years ago

Ty for the link, I needed a refresher.

Thing is with sociopaths is that not only do they hide their illness really well, but there is an unwillingness to believe they exist. It's like when I was talking to Dusk about it and I realized that most people either make them out to be just like Average-Joe-a-bit-worst or Sociopaths as Santa Claus. Know what I mean? Thing is, doesn't really matter, 'cause it's canon, but at the same time it reminds me of the sexual abuse thing. You know, when Freud started saying, yeah, dads sometimes abuse their kids and everyone was like oh, shitpiss, how can that be? It's like a double-penetration type deal, where they either imply everybody is fucked and then want to discredit the notion that certain people are REALLY fucked up. lol

It would be cool, to do a type of study of the victims. I'd really love to read about that. ;D

[info]manna

January 2 2007, 11:03:27 UTC 5 years ago

It would be cool, to do a type of study of the victims. I'd really love to read about that. ;D

Having worked for someone who fitted the snakes in suit sociopath at work archtype to the T, I can say he was definitely very adept at picking out the vulnerable people he could victimize easily and safely, and at leaving alone the ones he couldn't.

There's a really interesting study which is actually about sociopaths 'living in the wild', but which was done by recruiting women who'd lived with them and looking at their experiences. I thought I'd posted it on here but apparently not. I'll see if I have it saved anywhere.

[info]dartmouthtongue

January 2 2007, 17:20:48 UTC 5 years ago

I really believe that someone very very very close to me is a sociopath, but his partner is really the perfect prey for someone like that. I wish I could read about it to know if it's just a type of person who forgives, excuses or is blind to sociopaths or if ANYONE could fall into the game.

[info]manna

5 years ago

[info]manna

January 2 2007, 10:34:57 UTC 5 years ago

and that movie about the con woman that I hated

'The Last Seduction'?

I love that film :-)

[info]lexa_reiss

January 2 2007, 11:51:04 UTC 5 years ago

I think a seminar/book on how to not get taken in by a sociopath would be a terrific contribution to society! Especially since the best illustrative text would absolutely be TAS. They could use a couple other sources, too, like _The Bad Seed_ and that movie about the con woman that I hated--sorry, I'm blanking on the name.

Robert Hare's study of psychopathy, Without Conscience, includes a "Survival Guide," but it's only eleven pages long and the advice could be summed up as "There's no way to fix these people and it's not your fault. Get away if you can."

Hare sees Badlands as a movie that contains an accurate portrayal of a psychopath, and it's not the Starkweather-type murderer played by Martin Sheen. He's the Hollywood version: charming, killing on impulse, no conscience or feelings--except he really is in love with his girlfriend. Hare says that the girlfriend, played by Sissy Spacek, seems at first to be the normal one of the partnership, but the viewer gradually realizes that although she talks in the cliches of teen romance, there's really nobody home emotionally. She knows the words but not the music.

[info]dartmouthtongue

January 2 2007, 17:27:25 UTC 5 years ago

"There's no way to fix these people and it's not your fault. Get away if you can."

Lol Alright, that's straight-forward enough.
Are there any other movies? I'm trying to think of some, maybe we could make a little list or something.

[info]manna

January 2 2007, 18:05:35 UTC 5 years ago

'The Last Seduction' is one of the only films I've ever seen which is brave enough to have a central character with absolutely no redeeming moral features whatsoever. (Beyond her being Linda Fioretino, which is indeed a pretty fucking big one.) She's beautiful, and she's terrifyingly smart, but not only is she completely without morals, but the film makers were confident enough not to try and justify it, or make her sympathetic, or even make the victim in the film particularly unsympathetic. It's just an *awesome* film.

[info]lexa_reiss

5 years ago

[info]luce_flores

January 2 2007, 15:47:15 UTC 5 years ago

*sing song* this is what you get, this is what you get, when you mess with psychological shit... XD

PS - I love reading these discussions...

Anonymous

January 2 2007, 20:07:30 UTC 5 years ago

A really big experiment named IOF

Yes, I know about the experiment. By the way, why for its authors (and for you, apparently) some USA folks are representing "everybody"? Do you think that people from Amazonia would behave the same? Who brought up such USA students and on what values? Had they learned that some people are worthy and some - not so? Even subconsciously? How many of them are now being busy in Iraq, or in Guantanomo?

Now about my example. You see, almost EVERYBODY in Israel is drafted. So it is not some little experiment. It is about millions of people (for tens of years). Almost all of them behave the same. Only handful refuse, some before and some after. You could find about it on the web, or, if you are really interested, I will give you links. See, it is about 4% of population being NON-sociopaths! They all obey bosses, and bosses are the same ordinary "good citizens" as they are.They all are told from the kindergarten that army is OK, to enlist is OK and to obey commands is OK. And they all are told from the school (schools for Jews, because in Israel it is segregated) that Jews are special and have rights to Jewish state, and others are - not even a enemy, but a threat (yes, Arabs -Israelis are "demographic time bomb" as well) for Jewish state. So they simple do not have much problem to kill, maim, abuse and torture non-Jews. It is not only "moral", it is laudable. So, how many sociopaths are there? :(


Now about "pity". Toreth did not ask me to pity him :), but I cannot help seeing that Administration's people use him and call him names, while being responsible for his atrocities and even worse and sleeping well. By the way, the Chief of Staff of Israel Dan Haluz said that he slept well after a bomb in "targeted assassination" killed 14 people (Palestinians)including 9 children. You see, he was not a pilot who bombed the apartment block in the middle of night, he was then a boss of a pilot. I suppose the pilot slept well too. Now the High Court (in Hebrew it called "The Court of Justice" tells such assassinations are lawful (by international law) and moral and what not...

Rose Red

[info]dartmouthtongue

January 2 2007, 23:15:20 UTC 5 years ago

Re: A really big experiment named IOF

Er, what? The experiment (which isn't little by the way and the fact you say so leads me to believe you don't know as much about it as you may believe you do) shows how normal, decent people can become "situational sociopaths" when they feel a sense of duty and see the person who tells them to obey as someone qualified to. I thought that this not only explained your allegations about non-sociopath torturers, but also put light on how important it is to hold on to your conscience no matter what.

Now you're kinda contradicting yourself, because you've both implied that sociopaths don't exist and that almost everyone is one. Which one, Rose?

The USA thing, I really don't get where that's coming from, but whatever. ;D

As for the pity thing, I was just pointing out that sociopaths (all kinds) tend to seek pity from those they want to manipulate, and that certain people are prone to fall into that game because some people get lied to and some people lie to themselves.

Anonymous

January 3 2007, 09:02:56 UTC 5 years ago

Re: A really big experiment named IOF

"Which one, Rose?"


Really it is both :) I do not "believe" in sociopaths,but you do, so I implied that "normal, decent people" from USA (or Israel, or UK) way too easy turn to torturers, or simple do not give a damn on what base their prosperity is built ,while the most people in the "Third world" know about it very well from the childhood :( Those "normal, decent people" saw themselves as such, and so do their peers, but what about "others"? The "normal, decent people" were horrified that they had behaved such during an experiment, but in real life, where motivation is much stronger, they just go on. Do you know what are result of "normal" daily functioning of New York Exchange for billions? Are brokers "normal, decent people" - yes, mostly . Does it help? Not much :(

Rose Red

[info]dartmouthtongue

January 3 2007, 13:51:38 UTC 5 years ago

Re: A really big experiment named IOF

Actually, the normal, decent people behaved horrifically, never mind how they felt about it. Statistically there is a huge possibility that both of us, you and me, would behave the same way if the situation arose, and of course we would go on Rose. That's EXACTLY what the experiment tried to show, that people in such a situation tend to obey and if their life is that situation then they either permanently obey or become dissidents. Those dissidents tend to be killed, or create a revolution, which is why despite your romantic pessimistic outlook about people in general and your romantic optimistic outlook about those you like, it does help to have a conscience...because once people are shown another way they may even take it.
Their consciences CAN be awoken.

[info]duskpeterson

January 2 2007, 20:29:39 UTC 5 years ago

"It's like when I was talking to Dusk about it and I realized that most people either make them out to be just like Average-Joe-a-bit-worst or Sociopaths as Santa Claus."

I sure hope you're not attributing that perspective to me. :)

Don't have anything to add to your cogent post except the information that classic "ordinary people as torturers" experiment was recently repeated, under interesting circumstances.

[info]dartmouthtongue

January 2 2007, 23:22:15 UTC 5 years ago

A licking cat for you too.

No, you're much more subtle about things, but in a way yeah. I mean, from the very first you've said you don't really believe in sociopaths or Santa Claus, and that you see less difference btw "them" and "us." I agree with you that psychology is not a science of absolute certainty, and that it's a mistake to look at anyone as "them" 'cause of all the shitty things that can come from that, but I think there's a big difference btw those who are concerned for themselves and maybe other people, and those who can't imagine why anyone would be concerned about anyone but themselves. Is that a total load of shit? Obviously, I don't think it is. lol

[info]duskpeterson

January 2 2007, 23:56:48 UTC 5 years ago

Black, white, and grey

I'm deeply grateful you posted your message. I've never before had a licking cat arrive in my e-mail.

"I think there's a big difference"

When you're in the middle, it's somewhat harder to see the extremes. I've been on both sides of the line between mentally well and mentally ill, so where that line lies is a tad bit more blurry to me than to someone who is, say, fifty yards off. There wasn't any special moment in time when I suddenly said, "Oh, I'm well!" It just happened gradually, over the space of many years.

Likewise, of course, when I look at mentally ill people, I say, "There but for the grace of god go I." Now, if I'd always been perfectly well, no doubt I'd have a much more black-and-white perspective on where the line lay between well and ill, but having glided over that line (probably more than once, but I was too young to be aware of when I became ill), it all just looks like gradient shades of grey to me.

I think I made clear that I do see a practical difference between ill and well - namely, whether one can function in the world. And that's a very big difference. To use another example: I have a friend who gets migraines. From a certain perspective, you could just say she gets big headaches, like all of us do. But it's more than that, because she can't function when she gets her migraines.

"btw those who are concerned for themselves and maybe other people, and those who can't imagine why anyone would be concerned about anyone but themselves."

The problem I have is that I'm not sure how anyone can be certain they exist in the second category. :) By definition, if someone can't figure out why they should be concerned about someone, they're unlikely to realize that they should - or if they become aware that other people expect them to be concerned, they're likely to dismiss the other people as being "oversensitive." Toreth, after all, seems blissfully unaware that there's any major problem in his life.

I've interacted with people who demonstrated tremendous callousness. These people would no doubt regard themselves as mentally well. Probably, by the overall standards of humanity, they do fall into the "well" category, because they show a reasonable amount of concern in other cases. It's only in certain areas of life that they're callous.

So again, I see mental health as a gradient, with very dark grey on one side, and very light grey on the other, and no convenient line to separate the two. If you put a very dark grey person next to a very light grey person, the difference is going to be striking. But if you start trying to pin down the exact moment at which a person becomes too dark, I think it really comes back to functionalism. Can this person function in society? And if he can't, is the problem with the person . . . or with the society?

[info]dartmouthtongue

January 3 2007, 00:44:39 UTC 5 years ago

Black is slick and white looks good with my tan. ;D

Well, but isn't that just a lot of words to say that you believe in sociopaths like you believe in Santa Claus and that you think they are us and vice versa and all that?

As for what Toreth thinks, well, that's what all sociopaths think, that's why they're untreatable, 'cause they think nothing is wrong. I'm not trying to demonize them, and maybe you're right, maybe society is wrong in expecting people to have consciences, but that's the way it works now somewhat. In Toreth's world, Helen is the one that's fucked up, REALLY fucked up, and T-man's fine and dandy. He has a place.

And yeah, it's hard to believe they can exist, because we see conscience as something natural to have and can't imagine that anyone doesn't have it and isn't concerned at all about other people if it's not in a derivative way.

Like I said before, conscience IS something that you can lose for a while or in a situation if you don't watch it (I kinda wanna see Pinocchio now :P) and people can be callous with each other sometimes or even most times. Hormones, pain, moral or bodily weakness can get in the way of a conscience, but there's conflict there. In Toreth, where is the conflict? Like you said, he's perfectly fine how he is, the only times where he gets conflicted and starts his path of self-destruction is when he feels he has to give more than he has in the face of "normalcy."

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[info]manna

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[info]duskpeterson

January 3 2007, 00:21:34 UTC 5 years ago

Correction to previous post

"The problem I have is that I'm not sure how anyone can be certain they exist in the second category."

Whoops. I meant first category, obviously.

[info]dartmouthtongue

January 3 2007, 00:46:41 UTC 5 years ago

Re: Correction to previous post

Ok, now I'm confused. What?

[info]dartmouthtongue

January 2 2007, 23:34:33 UTC 5 years ago

Oh, and thanks for the link, I'll read it later.

Are you being condescending about the cogent thing? I never know with you. No offence taken if you are, my way with words...er...idiosynfuckencratic. ;D

[info]duskpeterson

January 3 2007, 00:01:24 UTC 5 years ago

"Are you being condescending about the cogent thing?"

Nope. 'Twas a sincere compliment. I liked your post because I agree, there's a very strong tendency by many readers (not only Manna's, but readers everywhere) to discount unpleasant facts about sympathetically presented characters.

"I never know with you."

(Wraps cloak of mystery around self.)

[info]dartmouthtongue

January 3 2007, 00:55:19 UTC 5 years ago

Yeah, I don't get it. I am hot for Toreth and yet I think he's a cuntrag, and I have no problems with liking perfectly terrible fictional characters while acknowledging they're the moral equivalent of like -what- worm shit? I don't need to make them better than they are, so that I can feel better about liking them. I'm a nicer guy if I think he's a little misunderstood pitiful boy with a bad childhood? Now, that's pathetic.

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